Curse

CyberNigma · Dec 04, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

my guess is that Razah was supposed to be something more than just a rit, explaining the original 50k cost and difficulty in obtaining via PvE. I imagine they were going to make Razah has the ability to switch to any class as the previous descriptions had said. That would explain the difficulty/high cost in capturing.

So, what happened?

Well, quite frankly, I think they couldn't get it to work, so they made Razah a Rit and just plugged it in.

Swame Rain · Dec 04, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I just want the last hero...boy is it going to be a painful experiance...lol..and to add insult to injury..I have to do it with all my chars that I want it on..grrrr. Just give it some time and I'm sure there will be a "cookie" cutter build for down here...thats basicly what Gaile said anyway. We just have to figure out what do do...I think it's kinda supid though..we figure out how to use the paragon hero to make life easier in vortex area..then they decide to nerf the skills that were being used. I know..99% of the time it's what the PvP players were using in HA that got them nerfed...to bad for players that used em in PvE.

Gli · Dec 04, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

I do not think you are noob, or those with rank12 HoH titles noob.
I think you guys are very good players, better than us.
I will never achieve that kind of rank of fame, and we are mediocrate GvG players.

However, I do think what we have over you guys is patience, friends that works together to have fun, and lack of ego of thinking we rule.

I've boldened part of this quote for emphasis, because as far as I'm concerned, it refers directly to the crux of the matter.

'Patience' is a virtue you need to defeat boredom, to get by something you're not really enjoying, something that's not fun. If these areas were fun, people wouldn't need 'patience'. They'd jump right back in after every failure, eager to do better.

And that's my biggest complaint: DoA doesn't strike me as fun.

cellardweller · Dec 04, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

From what I've played of DoA, I love what I've seen.... unfortunately there's a but ...

4-5hrs to complete an quest? I've been going out with 1 other person and 6 heros the couple of nights (yes, it is very doable), but after a couple of hours, one of us has to go... and we're right back to square one! How is full time professional supposed to find a single stretch of 4-5 hours in order to complete a quest? Break the 4 areas into 8 smaller ones and I'd call the update a wonderous success.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I've boldened part of this quote for emphasis, because as far as I'm concerned, it refers directly to the crux of the matter.

'Patience' is a virtue you need to defeat boredom, to get by something you're not really enjoying, something that's not fun. If these areas were fun, people wouldn't need 'patience'. They'd jump right back in after every failure, eager to do better.

And that's my biggest complaint: DoA doesn't strike me as fun.

The problem is that "fun" is hard to measure.

They wanted to provide an area that's incredibly difficult to the best of their abilities. Now, something can be incredibly hard and fun at the same time, and for me, that was the case. I've tried it 2 times with random pugs to get wiped by the first mob. I've then tried it with a fairly organized PUG and we got around 1/4 done with the city before two people dropped. I then grabbed a few people from the forum DoA signup thread, and then grabbed some random people with ventrillo from the district, and we made it through completely. So for me, it was fun and hard at the same time.

Now, I can see how after trying this endlessly only to fail over and over again would take away the fun completely, but that's true with almost anything. The problem is, if they make it easier, it completely defeats the purpose of having an incredibly difficult end game mission.

Spazzer · Dec 04, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

It's not a test of abilities. It's a test of free time.

SirErnieMacGloop · Dec 04, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

We Just got back from city, we completed the kill Lord Jadoth part of the Mallyx quest and did the quest from the forgotten in there.
It took us about 3 1/2 hours with about 1/2 hour of afk/smokebreaks etc.
We even had someone have to afk to pick up daughter and finished last mobs with bosses 1 player down.

This was only the 4th or 5th time in, a couple in group had been in a few more times. Our tank was the only one who has LB gaze, it didn't really matter for us what our LB rank was.

We took out time studied groups and patrol patterns, had a great tank/puller and everyone worked together, it was felt great beating one part of DoA!

one primevil armor for heros armor and a margonite gemstone for me, what a blast is was, got a few other golds too.

Now to try the other areas, woo hoo!

arcanemacabre · Dec 04, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

They'd jump right back in after every failure, eager to do better.

But this is also the crux of the matter: You can't just fail, and then jump right back in expecting to win. Half the battle in GW is builds. If you fail, you might have failed because of a silly mistake, poor tactics, or other battle factors... or you failed because your build (and/or others in the party) needs tweaking. You simply can't expect to just jump in with random skills and hope that your quick-thinking and battle tactics can see you through.

I'm having a lot of fun with DoA. Wanna know why? Because I go in, get slaughtered, then think about why I got slaughtered. After a bit of messing around with skills and team builds (synergy), I jump back in. I get killed again, but this time, not as fast. OK, something's better, just needs more work. This continues over and over until I'm no longer dieing.

This is fun to me. This seems to be fun to others as well. I personally like an area that I can't just slap on 8 skills and go. I've been doing that in all three chapters, and frankly, it gets boring. I'd have to actually gimp myself in order to create a challenge, which is fine with me, but finally there's a section that I actually have to try my hardest, and give it my best in order to get anywhere. Yay!

When people say "It's elite, it's not for everyone.", there's truth to that, not arrogance or elitism. This doesn't mean that not everyone can do it. Oh no. In fact, I will say "Everyone can do this!". The issue is: "Not everyone will do this!". There are players that want this challenge, as-is, and there are players that simply don't want to take the time or effort to apply themselves in the face of a big, honking challenge.

The only real issue I see as being a problem is acquiring Razah. Is he needed? No. But, as much as this game is on balance, and being 'competitive' with minimal effort, it's a shame that PvPers need only spend 6k faction while the PvEers have to, well, fill hell with ice. In a hero battle, the PvPer clearly has the advantage. Not just because of the difficulty of the zones, but the amount of time it would take to get these gems. This needs changing (as in, just let us in, forget the stupid gems).

aohige · Dec 04, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

arcanemacabre, I believe I *almost* teamed up with you, or two of your guild members from LOST the first day.
Unfortunately, I had to answer guild/alliance member calls, and couldn't stick around until the team was full. That was the only day I even tried a PuG in DoA, and ended up not even trying. (we went in afterwards with guildies/alliances, and have been ever since)

I'm glad you guys are having fun. We are also.

Sal · Dec 04, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

But this is also the crux of the matter: You can't just fail, and then jump right back in expecting to win. Half the battle in GW is builds. If you fail, you might have failed because of a silly mistake, poor tactics, or other battle factors... or you failed because your build (and/or others in the party) needs tweaking. You simply can't expect to just jump in with random skills and hope that your quick-thinking and battle tactics can see you through.

I'm having a lot of fun with DoA. Wanna know why? Because I go in, get slaughtered, then think about why I got slaughtered. After a bit of messing around with skills and team builds (synergy), I jump back in. I get killed again, but this time, not as fast. OK, something's better, just needs more work. This continues over and over until I'm no longer dieing.

This is fun to me. This seems to be fun to others as well. I personally like an area that I can't just slap on 8 skills and go. I've been doing that in all three chapters, and frankly, it gets boring. I'd have to actually gimp myself in order to create a challenge, which is fine with me, but finally there's a section that I actually have to try my hardest, and give it my best in order to get anywhere. Yay!

When people say "It's elite, it's not for everyone.", there's truth to that, not arrogance or elitism. This doesn't mean that not everyone can do it. Oh no. In fact, I will say "Everyone can do this!". The issue is: "Not everyone will do this!". There are players that want this challenge, as-is, and there are players that simply don't want to take the time or effort to apply themselves in the face of a big, honking challenge.

The only real issue I see as being a problem is acquiring Razah. Is he needed? No. But, as much as this game is on balance, and being 'competitive' with minimal effort, it's a shame that PvPers need only spend 6k faction while the PvEers have to, well, fill hell with ice. In a hero battle, the PvPer clearly has the advantage. Not just because of the difficulty of the zones, but the amount of time it would take to get these gems. This needs changing (as in, just let us in, forget the stupid gems).

Very good post , well said !!

Gli · Dec 04, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

The problem is that "fun" is hard to measure.

Well... I can measure my own fun, and DoA doesn't measure up.

I got annoyed the instant I entered the city and noticed the nonsense Margonite names. Why do I have to memorize what class each of those represents, instead of just english (or whatever language you're using) words that give you some kind of clue? I decided to do that some time later and went on to try another area.

Next stop: the gloomy place. Looks so awful I totally blanked out on the screen and played by the radar. Not fun because of the mindnumbingly awful graphical design. I don't even WANT to go there again and defeat it. Went back to the city some more because it was at least bearable to look at, if still stupifyingly ugly. Got bored really fast because the planning stages, group formation and skill selection take about 50 times as long as the actual playing moments. Not my cuppa tea.

I'll buy 4 gems to get my Raza, unless I need to submit myself to too much annoying gameplay after I bribe the gatekeeper. If that's going to be the case, screw Raza. (I guess I'll have to read up on that quest before I invest in gems.) Screw the rest of the DoA anyway. The place makes me cringe. Not because it's difficult, I don't mind difficult, I enjoy difficult. It just rubs me the wrong way.

stamenflicker · Dec 04, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaden

But Anet also needs to appeal to the non-casual players. They already gave casual players the best PvE expansion, now they need to give something to those who want more than that. Just because some large percent equals casual players, doesn't mean you can forget the rest. I agree, Razah needs to be moved, but an area appealling to those who are above standard gaming level is great. Just because they represent a small amount of players doesn't mean you over-look them... so your first point goes nowhere in my humble opinion.

Non-casual players got the Deep and Urzog's last expansion. So if Anet were taking turns... it was the casual player's turn.

Our guild doesn't do the Deep or Urzog. We think its dumb. And it has nothing to do with our skill lvls. We all did it once and once was quite enough. The rewards were not worth the wasted time. If you do it for fun, then great. The first time is fun trying to figure it out. After that? It's a chore. You can make more plat per hour in almost any other area if that's what you are into. You can get more greens in SF, if that's what you're into.

You can waste 90 minutes there, if that is what you are into.

So no one is overlooking non-casual players. If anything, it is the reverse. It was the casual player's turn to enjoy an expansion.

Spike · Dec 04, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

What part don't you believe? Beating the City of Torc'Qua isn't all that difficult, overall--it's merely incredibly long and very unforgiving of mistakes.

If you want actual proof, I do have screenshots, and I could throw down the build my PuG used skill-for-skill.

Please do. I would love to see them.

Fates · Dec 04, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

...

So no one is overlooking non-casual players. If anything, it is the reverse. It was the casual player's turn to enjoy an expansion.

Casual players did just get an expansion, it's called Nightfall.

stamenflicker · Dec 04, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Casual players did just get an expansion, it's called Nightfall.

I disagree. NF is no easier than Factions or Prophecies. As far as the amount of time it takes to finish, Prophecies is probably the longest, but not by much. If you know what you are doing, it Prophecies is probably even a faster win because you aren't grinding anything like Sunspear points.

If Prophecies and Factions were just too casual for you, then why buy Nightfall? Why stick with Anet at all? And the game has nothing to do with "expansions." You have the opportunity to beat 10 times with 10 different toons if you want. You have the opportunity to try and garner a 10 title award if you want. I've not seen anyone with that yet.

You can say what you want to say about NF being easy. But you can't say you exhausted its opportunities. There are plenty of opportunities for you should you choose them.

natuxatu · Dec 04, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I still don't understand why people said Guild Wars was too easy. If it was *too* easy and you weren't enjoying it because it was *too* easy.. you wouldn't still be playing it. Thus I think it should stick to the overall formula of all the other areas in the Guild Wars Chapters...

I've already lost interest in it but I still like the how it was designed.. with the collecting of items for the weapons and such.. hopefully they add a better area like that in the next chapter~

Xpl0iter · Dec 04, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

What part don't you believe? Beating the City of Torc'Qua isn't all that difficult, overall--it's merely incredibly long and very unforgiving of mistakes.

If you want actual proof, I do have screenshots, and I could throw down the build my PuG used skill-for-skill.

I well agree with this guy.

Elite missions are doable, It is about figuring them out.

I am working on Gloom part of the quest, if any one who is done being pissed at ANET and got some time to spend on elite mission it self, figure out what to do witht he foes that attack you when you get to the guy who needs to be saved. We cleared entire area, and went to him, and then were raided by about 50 foes in 4 min. Couldn't figure what to do.
I wonder if we have something to do with the SHARD of light that we recieve by the beginning of the quest.

Any one has any comment?? Lets make this thread a bit more positive.

I am done with CITY quest with a PUG Group. And we did not even have TS or VENT.

MaglorD · Dec 04, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocjo Bassannn

Now I dont think I want the rit for even one of my characters. I mean if it is gonna take me on avg days to get passed even one part of this 4 part quest it is gonna take months to get every one of my characters through here... Do I like a challange yes... but running into a brick wall over and over again isnt a challange ... its pure stupidity... even if you do it with some degree of intellegence.

You know what I think. Anet added this area to stop ppl from complaining GW gets boring once you finish the main quest. So they purposely made it extremely 'easy' so ppl will spend months trying to complete it, or keep them trying...basically it's how Anet intends to extend the longevity of GW.

I am not sure this is the right strategy to adopt, especially if they just want to keep making things 'easier' and 'easier'. Most players might just give up and buy another game.

The majority of people buy games to chill and have a good time, not to be stressed out trying to fight obviously highly overpowered mobs.

Forcing ppl to party in Anguish to get the Rt hero doesn't seem like a good idea, though of course they took out the henchies because it was deemed impossible doing it with henchies.

What happens say 6 months down the road when the area empties out and nobody is around to party with, how the heck are players going to get Razah?

Solution for Anet is to change the requirement of gems to get to the heart of Abaddon. Give players the option to kill that corrupt Forgotten gatekeeper for demanding a bribe, just like we were allowed to kill that woman in the Orchard mission.

Bankai · Dec 04, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

I disagree. NF is no easier than Factions or Prophecies. As far as the amount of time it takes to finish, Prophecies is probably the longest, but not by much. If you know what you are doing, it Prophecies is probably even a faster win because you aren't grinding anything like Sunspear points.

If Prophecies and Factions were just too casual for you, then why buy Nightfall? Why stick with Anet at all? And the game has nothing to do with "expansions." You have the opportunity to beat 10 times with 10 different toons if you want. You have the opportunity to try and garner a 10 title award if you want. I've not seen anyone with that yet.

You can say what you want to say about NF being easy. But you can't say you exhausted its opportunities. There are plenty of opportunities for you should you choose them.

And I kind of disagree with you there. While NF is harder, it's made much more available for casual play due to the addition of heroes. Now casual players don't have to wait for 30 minutes for a party so they can play for 10 minutes. Instead, they grab heroes and can play for 40 minutes.

Zehnchu · Dec 04, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

This thread is pretty much shot, despite what anyone says here it’s really not going to change things in the end. It’s best to come to terms with that if anything this thread was good for people to let out some steam.

There is only really two issues I have one being Razah, I wouldn’t have cared to much about wanting to get him if he wasn’t only Ritualist hero. I would have preferred A Ritualist hero over the assassin any day. I never took the assassin henchmen in Factions and I still don’t use Assassin hero.

Special monster skills, I’ve really never liked the idea of these. It cheapens the game in making things challenging I would rather have seen higher monsters levels. I had my doubts about LB and skills weather or not they would be worth the hype and thought cool something for PvE sadly I don’t even bother equipping skill anymore.

I think everyone would rather see balance in PvE, despite what people think you can still have things challenging and hard and balance at the same time.

Other then those two thing’s really, I’ve enjoyed nightfall a lot. And I think they did a great job so far.

But it’s time to stop beating the horse senseless